Topic: Elitism in music - Interordi Forums

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Blazen
Vv

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-48 post

I had this discussion with someone about elitism and how the media 'ruins' music. He's elitist to unpopular music, doesn't matter what it is, but it leaves him with some obscure opinions. Myself, I am more laid back, as long as it sounds good, I can listen to it. Discuss?

Stranger: so you're some sort of metal head i take it?

You: SOME sort.
You: My standards of music are pretty low and it annoys the guitarist in my band to no end.
You: He's an elitist, to bands at a time. Like right now, if you talk any trash about John Petruchi, the guitarist of Dream Theater, he'd bitch you out for it.
You: But if it sounds good, I like it.

Stranger: trust me, i know who that guy is. i have some lame metal friends myself

You: Well don't get me wrong. I do like Metal, Metallica is my favorite band right now and so is Disturbed, both pretty metally, but I like mainstream, I like punk, some rap, some pop, some country, some r and b, just about anything. Hell I even like some showtunes. But I think that's what's music should be about, if it sounds good, you should like it because of how it sounds, not because of what it is.
You: But that's just me.

Stranger: i'm sort of an elitist myself, but i look down on metal head elitists.

You: I look down on elitists in general because I think they're elitisim blinds them to what music should be about and prevents them from actually enjoying it. Again, that's just me. I don't want to seem like a jerk, but like I said, if it sounds good you should like it and not feel obliged to hate it or love it, ya know?

Stranger: well being disliked is part of what elitism is all about

You: Waring against other elitist you mean?

Stranger: everyone who's not as elite as myself obviously

You: Ok, so, I'm just trying to be clear and again, I'm not trying to spark some sort of arguement just continue a civil debate: you're saying that if I were against what you like, you'd war against me? Just because I wasn't into it?

Stranger: obviously

You: Ok.

You: And, all to their own.

You: But one more question. Does skill come into play at all? Like if you don't think one band is as 'good' as another via drum or guitar or singer 'skill' do you absolutely hate them for being lower?

Stranger: technical skills don't impress me really.

You: Then you've eared quite a bit of my respect.

You: My guitarist you see, loves to bash on a couple of my favorite guitarists, Young(ACDC) and Morello (Rage Against the Machine) cause he likes to point out that Young does alot of scaling in his solos while Patruchi does all this complicated stuff. And it really bugs me when he looks at that alone. For morello he makes fun of the sounds he makes with the amps and whammy just because he claims 'anyone can do it' even though Morello is the one who DOES do it and does it quite well.

Stranger: typical retard, i have a few friends like that

You: THANK YOU SO MUCH

Stranger: but he is right about acdc, they are kinda lame

You: I'm just glad you don't think so because of 'skill'.

Stranger: also, rage is kinda.. too popular. that's the kind of band that's not meant to be popular
Stranger: all those fags who "love" killing in the name don't even realize what the song is about, they just think it's fun to say fuck

You: Oh I see what you mean.
You: And yes I do agree.
You: But that kind of stuff doesn't bother me, because as long as they support the band, I'm all for it.
You: BUT I do see how it could be annoying.

Stranger: i'm sure that zack delawhateverhisname would prefer to have a proper fan base over what he has now. isn't he kinda for real?

You: He's a rebel, yeah. They do a lot of protests together and support a lot of rights groups.

Stranger: while i don't endorse that hippie shit myself, i think it's cool with artists who actually mean something every now and then

You: And its de la Rocha, but whatever.
You: I'm not a fan of it myself and I don't look into their protests too much but damn do I love their music and that I look into. The music not the protests.
You: But out of curiousosity, what are you elitist to?

Stranger: what do you mean?

You: What genre do you support with unconditional love?

Stranger: indie stuff. like indie folk/rock/pop, twee, pretentious hipster garbage, twee, general alternative stuff. also post-rock
Stranger: whatever, as long as it's not too popular

You: So a lot of underground stuff.
You: Why? Is it the possible fan base that bugs you?

Stranger: with popular stuff? yes

You: Why exactly? They listen to it, may love it, support the band; what's to hate?

Stranger: i wish i knew
Stranger: it sure sounds more comfortable just loving u2 and acdc and all that generic stuff

You: That's really interesting, I gotta say. Because ever sense guitar hero came out as soon as people started saying 'I heard it on Guitar Hero' some already fans seem to freak out.
You: Its confusing cause its not their fault perhaps, its almost as if those fans feel everyone should know about them already.
You: Hell some think Guitar Hero is ruining some bands.

Stranger: if it's on guitar hero, it's way too pop for me anyways

You: Wow, cause there's a lot of songs on some of those games I've never heard of until I played the game.
You: And I've liked them and then the band.
You: Is that sooooooo wrong?

Stranger: somewhat
Stranger: also, guitar hero is way too rock for me anyways, i can't stand that angry music for too long
Stranger: especially in the harder stages, not only does the crowd boo you out all the fucking time, but you have to listen to stuff like tool
Stranger: nightmare

You: But its the samething as hearing it on the radio once and getting into it.

Stranger: if it's on the radio it
Stranger: 's too pop

You: Then how am I supposed to find it other than by punching my keyboard into a search bar?

Stranger: last.fm is great for that
Stranger: not so very pop forums are great
Stranger: talking to cool people is also kinda clever

You: But again, that's searching for something I don't know exists. I guess what I'm trying to say is, is that the reason unpopular bands are unpopular is because they aren't played on the radio and thus not on guitar hero, but people usually hear it where first? Should it matter? I'm not saying depend on either, but what I am saying is that you can't have people looking for music they don't know exists until someone presents it to them.
You: And that's very debateable and random.

Stranger: go to shows where you live
Stranger: hype the bands you like

You: But then that'd make them popular eventually wouldn't it?

Stranger: anyways, i'm off, long drive tomorrow. fare well, remain elitist
Stranger: yes, then you find new ones

TL;DR He says he listens to unpopular stuff and once its popular, abandons it for something less popular in fear of fanbase.
I argue that the popularity only helps the band with the many bands supporting it, thus bringing in guitar hero into the discussion. He hates all the songs on there just cause they're popular and that its bad people get into bands because of that. I argue that one could say the same about the radio and he agrees, keeping the same argument from guitar hero. Then I wonder how he finds these things if he doesn't know they exist, hit his head on the keyboard until something comes up? He says talk to cool people, I say that's unreliable. He says hype local bands you like. I say, that'll make them popular. He says, then go to another band, then leaves.

Black Dranzer.exe
World Traveler

Inactive
2827 posts

Take it from someone who works 30 hours a week with musicians between concert halls and recording studios; elitism is present everywhere. Yes, i'm an elitist bastard, but i'm sorry, not all music is created the same. Awhile back, I wrote a piece on why music is slowly getting inevitably worse; you asked for it.

Quote:
In today's musical world, gone are the simple recording sessions that would go: Play the guitar, which goes through the amp, which goes into the microphone, which goes into the mixer, which goes onto the recording. Now, we have to add synth effects, echoes, warbling, or some other computerized effect that can be used to change how things sound. While this had the ability to be cool when just a few people were using it, now everyone is using it.

Best example I could use is the auto-tune fad. Most people would argue that Kanye West threw this over the top with his latest album 808s and Heartbreaks. In fact, many call him the defining voice of the generation. The problem, HE'S NOT REALLY SINGING. Auto-tuning allows people with no vocal range to keep their voice within a certain range of notes, while also making them sound like Darth Vader and Hal's bastard child. The key word is that the machine does all the work. I've played around with auto-tuners at work; I can sing Love Lockdown or Heartless or even T-Pain's lines from "I'm on a Boat". You can have the worst voice in the world and make yourself sound like Kanye West, one of music's big icons, just by talking into a special machine. Simply put, you can cheat now and make it big without having ANY TALENT AT ALL.

What happened to the days when bad bands were just cast aside for the good ones? Musical darwinism, as I call it, just doesn't exist anymore, why? Because any idiot can get a guitar and learn the first 2 lines to "Stairway to Heaven" now that they can buy a guitar for $100 in Guitar Center. With the ability to purchase musical instruments so easily, more and more people are going out and buying that Squire Stratocaster package. I know what you're about to say, "But with more people playing, more good talent should be discovered, right? right!?" Sorry, that's not how music works.

It all goes down to the psychology of the player. 90% of the previously mentioned retards that go out and buy those Squire strat packs would never admit that they're terrible. Then, suddenly, retard one buys his own recording software and makes a record of himself playing. Retard two hears the recording and thinks, "I'm just as good as him; he sounds just like me..." and buys his own recording gear to make his own little record. Then Retards Three to infinity do the same and all make these little demo records, consistently bragging and showing them off. Then, when a record company goes searching for that one killer new band, they have to wade through a pool full of mediocrity and sound-a-likes to find it. Nowadays, the internet makes this even harder on said record companies with tools like Myspace and Youtube being used to plaster the faces of losers all over the net. With the search being so difficult, many companies just give up and find a band that can be made to sound decent via the special effects mentioned earlier. The problem? When every company does this, you get a million of the same sounds and beats with slightly different lyrics. Try this experiment, find some way *Youtube, last.fm, Purevolume, etc.* to play Nickelback's "Photograph" and Daughtry's "Over You" simaultaneously, starting them at the exact same time. Notice how you can't separate the songs in your head? It's because it's the same damn song with "Over You" having one less chord to play. When all music sounds similar, people can't tell if it's good or bad because there's nothing different to compare it to. Which means the music is allowed to decline as much as it wants, because no one can tell.

I miss the days when the effects weren't overused and bands could just make a record using their own talent to play the instruments. What do you think Led Zeppelin did when they wrote Stairway? Certainly not add ridiculous effects loops, twinkly synthesizers, and auto-tune Robert Plant's voice. They played; they recorded what they played; it sold. But with the ability to use all this new technology to disguise music that was played differently than how it will be heard on the record, bands aren't worried about ever having to improve how they play. Great example, Linkin Park, listen to the first two albums, Hybrid Theory and Meteora. Now tell me, if I named a random song and you had to guess which album is was from, could you? It's the same sound effects *Tripled Vocals, etc.* on every song with different lyrics and a slightly different rhythm. Personally, I praised them when they released their latest album, Minutes to Midnight. Why BD, don't you hate emo rock with a passion? Yes, but hear me out, the lyrics are still whiny, but the instrumental part of the music is about a million time better now that they've dumped 90% of the effects they used, and that natural sound is miles better than the artificial sound produced by the first two albums. They admitted that they wanted to make themselves a little more classic, a step in the right direction. Now, if they could just move on to writing about One-night stands, drinking beer, and partying in hotel rooms, as opposed to "WWHHHHATTT I'VE DOOOONNNNEEEE!!!". There just might be hope for them though.

Regardless, i've made my points, music doesn't have to be good anymore, you just have to have a good computer and enough money to buy effects packages. Add them in, and suddenly you sound like Nickelback and the other 8 billion clone bands of them out there. You know what, this has been pretty bland, I should liven this up at the end, right? Here's an idea, i'll show you the retards I hate. Keep in mind this is a cover of a My Chemical Romance song, and they don't even write good songs. But these guys are just that bad. This is my parting shot, the worst cover i've ever heard, out of anything.

Helena cover by Sometime Next Tuesday

This is what i'm talking about...

Edited by Black Dranzer.exe on June 19, 2009 at 15:24:52.

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Sakura
Aqua-cadet

Inactive
1027 posts

Honestly, if I hear music I like, I download it. I have heard a few unpopular bands, and some are good, some aren't, the same as some big bands. Whatever I like, I listen to.
I liked Good Charlotte, then at a certain point, I didn't like their music so I still listen to the old stuff but not the new stuff. I liked Green Day, and I still do, no matter how popular they are.
Honestly if you like it, listen to it.
I know a lot of people who find bands who are unpopular and go "my favourite bands are..."
And some people wanna seem cool because they they are "original".
I hate when people abandon something even if they like it, just because too many people know about it.
It's annoying and immature. Don't be a baby.
I listened to a lot of bands before they hit it big, and honestly, I'm glad they did hit it. Good for them, they are doing what they want.

If they start sucking (to my ears), I'll stop listening to them, but just because a band gets popular is no reason to stop listening to them. You're not cool saying you like a band that no one heard of.

Necro
Hail to the King, baby!

Inactive
1265 posts

Quote:
It all goes down to the psychology of the player. 90% of the previously mentioned retards that go out and buy those Squire strat packs would never admit that they're terrible

This really is pretty much, at least in my opinion, the big part of the problem. Nothing wrong with cheap guitars, or any instruments. It's not the guitar's fault that the people who play them suck and making guitars available to more people isn't really a bad thing. It increases the number of shitty people playing but even if guitars were all really expensive you'd still have a percentage of them being shitty. It depends on the player and how good of a guitarist they want to be. I know alot of people who absolutely love -and I mean LOVE punk. Punk guitars are crap but if thats what the person likes the sound of, its just the way it is.

I'd argue the technology being abuses isn't so much of a problem. There's alot of music these days that takes the performance out of the music - autotuned vocals, beats created mostly with samples - but I don't think it's the problem. It's the amount to which this music actually sells. 808s and Heartbreaks sold extremely well and proves that people can make alot of money without any talent.

Alot of people love shitty music. It sells and alot more people want to make shitty music. If there wasn't any demand for shitty music we'd hear alot less of it.

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