Topic: False Gods and Death Squads

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Masterman.EXE
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no offence but not many people like reading so much or at least i dont

THE MASTER

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Mega X.exe
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Dammit Wind, do you ever make short posts?

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Originally posted by NewWindRider~
Before I began my latest, 1337357 and greatest work of debate material, I want to say that I in no way mean to offend anyone, and everything that I\'ve written below is expressly my OWN OPINION and I in no way meant to offend MegaX.exe. :D

Oooh, special mention. Flattering.

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God(R) is trademark the Disney corperation and so is the likeness thereof.

Below the belt already? Damn, you don\'t waste any time.

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Now that that is out of the way...

Moving right along.

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False Gods and Death Squads

Nice title, BTW.

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The ultimate question... one that has plagued our world for longer than anyone could possibly imagine. It burns itself into the mind of almost every human, and invades the dreams of even more. It\'s something that no one will likely ever know for sure, and most certainly has an answer that most every human is incapable of truly understanding the depth of. Has it ever kept you awake at night? Made you sit and think? Does it make you afraid? Tell me... do you know...

I agree wholeheartedly with this statement.

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\"What comes after death?\" \"Is there a God?\"

Judgement and yes.

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Nothing and No. Trust me, if I had my way, there would be a God, simply to kater to the weak minded masses, but as it is, I am left with onl;y the conclusion that we live in a godless society. And often I am asked... \"Do you believe that a God exists?\" My answer is always the same. \"I believe only that it was necessary for us to CREATE God.\"

Since this is opinion, I\'ll only add my opinion to balance it out. I believe in God, but I live in a society that can\'t seem to decide whether it believes in him or not.

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Think about that for as moment. If you believe in any God/s, then more power to you, I have nothing against you, and I am not trying to convert you. I am only trying to open your mind to different perspectives. But try to imagine... NO afterlife. Ceasing to exist on every level imaginable and many that aren\'t. Don\'t worry if you can\'t. Few people actually CAN. Humans, as I\'ve said many a time before, cannot handle the cold truth of their own mortality. People cannot comprehend it, they cannot understand it. Therefor... they fear and hate it, and force themselves to believe that it isn\'t true.

I have considered it. I don\'t believe I can actually comprehend the idea of not existing, but I don\'t fear and hate it. After all, I wouldn\'t feel anything in that case, would I? Besides, I don\'t plan on dying until I\'m done on earth anyway, whatever choice I may have. I just don\'t believe it to be the truth.

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In addition to this, many people waste (In my opinion) half of their lives in cathedrals and churches... temples and Mosques, forcing themselves to keep believing in their selected religious dogma and the lies it has fed them. However... if you are to ask them \"Why do you believe in X Religion?\", a majority of the time they become speechless and/or defensive and give you a bullshit response somewhere along the lines of \"Because Jesus died for my sins. He died for yours too, you should appreciate that.\" BZZZZZT! WRONG! That is something that you believe, not a reason for believe, and so many people are unable to tell the difference that it\'s pathetic. For the most part... even the most religious of men don\'t know WHY they believe. In a nutshell, this means that they DON\'T believe. It\'s impossible to believe in something and not know why. The truth is, they just don\'t want to NOT believe.

I\'ll drink (a Pepsi) to that. True, I spend a good deal of my time at church, but it\'s optional work, so I\'m not sure if you were counting that. Why do I believe it? Because, I\'ve always felt like there was a greater purpose behind life, behind existance. Simply put, I think it\'s the truth.

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People are RAISED to believe in their respective religious dogmas, not to be saved, but to be kept in order, or under a leader\'s control. What we must all remember is that the only omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient thing in existance is light. But we generated a creature from within our own minds that can supposedly do anything or be anywhere with a flick of it\'s wrist. A creature that we believe will protect us from harm just for believing it exists and following it\'s \"will\". And now you have two extremely attractive reasons to join religion. Eternal life, and the ultimate bodyguard.

Slightly offensive, but not more than usual. Not so much a flick of the wrist as simply speaking, but yeah. That\'s the gist.

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\"But why create a God?\" you ask. Well sit down little Timmy, and allow me to continue. Chew on this for a moment. Without laws, the world would be in complete and total chaos, because humans, by nature, are primarily selfish creatures. Therefore, a few of the less... let us say... PRIMITIVE and neanderthalic of our race, generations before you and I ever came into existance, created religion as a failsafe against the potential, yet inevitable catastrophe that was the human race.

Well little, Windy. Though I can\'t say I agree with a lot of this, humans are flawed.

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Religion was, for the most part, born of good intentions in an ill thought out idea. One such ill thought out aspect of this idea was the fact that humans will always find a way to twist and corrupt anything to suit their own personal desires, and justify themselves no matter how much they do it. This of course includes religion. Small example... \"It\'s not smoking if you don\'t inhale.\"

Except for the ill-thought out part, this is true.

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While religion was originally created with the intent of instilling a good moral code and a sence of order and what is right or wrong in people to preserve peace, it has now become little more than a scapegoat for war and a tool of the politicians. You can, of course, see why the fathers of religion may have believed that such an idea would work out. Promises of eternal paradise and protection and even endless knowledge in return for obediance, and threats of infinite suffering and humiliation for the lack thereof. Sounds like the perfect plan. But it wasn\'t.

Yes, I believe Christianity to be the truth. But I also agree about it being turned into a political and military tool.

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One thing that the Fathers of Religion all seem to have overlooked is the fact that there are people everywhere who hate or fear anyone who is different than they, themselves are. People like this are always spoiling for a fight, and many are capable of rousing others to stand and fight alongside them. To fight against people of other sizes, shapes, colors, races and religions.

Sad, but true.

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A small example of the hatred that people like this, especially higher up in a religious circle, can inspire, is the war that Christians are currently waging at this very moment. This war is so meaningless, it even beats out the Crusades, because at least those people got to wear armor. I recently saw a bumper sticker which read...

Of course, Christians aren\'t the only ones waging a religious war, and this one isn\'t even costing any lives. But sure, let\'s focus on them, right?

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ANAL SEX MAKES BABY JESUS CRY!

-Christians against homosexuality-

Honestly, I couldn\'t help but to bust up laughing when I read this, but contrary to popular belief, this bumper sticker was not created as a novelty item. It was created to go below the jesus fish and between the taillights on the back of your car, to both convert a few tailgaters (seriously works) and to petition against homosexuality. This, to me, is just stupid. The idea that a supreme being... the all knowing creator of worlds was in the process of creating a new planet for which to hose intelligent life, but then caught wind of some faggets down on Earth and directed his attention on them so that he might exact some of that divine wrath on the fudge packing and carpet munching devils. Sounds logical to me.

I\'d actually use the bible to argue with you, but somehow I doubt you\'d listen.

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Now, I\'ve read the bible along with many other religious books and texts spanning MANY religions, but the idea of an all knowing, supreme creature, creating a race with free will, and then commanding them to do and not to do certain things (Man shall not lay down with man or whatever) seems just a little fishy and dare I say it? Conspiracle to me. Especially when you say that someone will be damned for indulging in carnal pleasures, when you gave that someone the will to do so, and even more so, it comes naturally. You don\'t decide that you like something like that. You\'re shaped and molded to like or dislike it through what you experiance in life.

See, you obviously skipped large portions of the Bible. He didn\'t give them the will for that. Sin tempted them to do that. There\'s the whole Garden of Eden story to explain that. You should read it.

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The will of God is forever changing to suit the needs and desires of those who follow it. Why \"it\" and not \"him\" you ask? God is one of a kind, therefor incapable of reproducing by normal means, if any at all. This allows the theory that if god DOES exist, \"it\" has no genetalia, because it would be something that it wouldn\'t need. This would make it neither man nor woman. Reproductive organs are what define a human (created in gods image) as male or female, and these organs ensure the continuation of the species. As an immortal, this does not apply. God did not create us in it\'s image. We created it in ours. Men were dominant until about 100 years ago. So it makes sence that God\'s image would be that of a man since WE created it.

Well God\'s will isn\'t changing, and God\'s referred to as a he, for the sake of simplicity. Sort of how, even though you use different words depending on which gender you\'re talking to in say...Spanish, when you address a crowd, you speak as if you were talking to a man. Simple as that.

Naturally, I disagree with the last few lines.

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As those in power switch seats and the times that they live in change, the will of god changes as well, becoming infinitely more distorted from it\'s original design. If a world leader wishes to persecute a specific people, or attack a country for a signifigant or insignifigant, just or unjust reason, they will invoke the name of their chosen god/s to justify their foolish and irrational, selfish actions.

But does that reflect God\'s changing will? Or just the selfishness and greed of the person \"representing\" him?

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Troops of suicide soldiers are sent aimlessly into hostile enemy territory, directly into the hands of the enemy to serve as sacrifice to having a seemingly more just reason to persue the leader\'s own agenda under the guise of trying to gain something for the public, because once one of their own has fallen, the public craves vengeance. This empowers the leader, giving him an excuse to carry on in his rampage of senseless destruction and violence, all the while pretending to fight for god, and what the public wants, and in doing so, wastes countless lives of those who\'s purpose is to protect, NOT instigate further chaos.

I\'m actually wondering who you\'re referring to specifically.

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The greed of the few is almost ALWAYS what corrupts the quiet and content masses, driving them to madness and confusion, which feeds the power and greed of the few, in turn fueling the chaotic confusion of the many, and so a vicious, serpentine cycle ensues until the few fall, or more often than not, are thrown from power one way or another. Sic semper tyrannus and Vae Victus.

Greed turns to Madness. Check.

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In fairness however, I will admit, that there have been a few who have willed their power to good uses, and even more who let their will stay neutral. But it is fact that there are indeed, in greed, MOST who have bent the rules of religion to accomplish things that, once the veil that they created fell, were and shall be thought of as rightfully wrong and often evil.

Notice that they bent the rules. That\'s important.

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Many, in fact MOST places started out peaceful. But once the leaders of said places found something out that they didn\'t like about another people, or even just their leader, they use religion as their excuse to mindlessly slaughter countless innocent numbers with their armies.

No, actually. Through history, the early years of civilizations are always marked with war.

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The reason that religion is such a wonderful tool and scapegoat for war is because that the people who follow religion almost ALWAYS defend it fiercly, often times NOT because they believe in it, but because they want a reason to fight, or they don\'t want to NOT believe. Religion gives them something to look forward to. It comforts them. Without something to mindlessly cling to, humans are left in fear and confusion. Religion is a double edged sword that can be used for good and evil alike.

Almost anything could be exploited like that.

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In short, religion filled with its false gods and the power of being able to manipulate the masses through their leaders is both destroyer and redeemer, electing its leaders to become both pawn and messiah. Religion, though nothing more than a fairytale laced with conspiracy, is only as good or evil as the man or woman\'s twisted version of such, who controls the many. If one can let go of their beliefs, and not be driven into depression or insanity, they can become the closest thing there is to a god.

Of course I don\'t believe most of that.

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The pure embodiment of free will.

Or just a nut with a God complex.

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Look forward, not up. It\'s hard to dodge a wall when you can\'t see it.

Especially if there is no wall.

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~WindRider

Mega X.exe

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I considered doing a full counter-counter-point, but the quote tags would kill me dead.

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Originally posted by Mega X.exe

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ANAL SEX MAKES BABY JESUS CRY!

-Christians against homosexuality-

Honestly, I couldn\'t help but to bust up laughing when I read this, but contrary to popular belief, this bumper sticker was not created as a novelty item. It was created to go below the jesus fish and between the taillights on the back of your car, to both convert a few tailgaters (seriously works) and to petition against homosexuality. This, to me, is just stupid. The idea that a supreme being... the all knowing creator of worlds was in the process of creating a new planet for which to hose intelligent life, but then caught wind of some faggets down on Earth and directed his attention on them so that he might exact some of that divine wrath on the fudge packing and carpet munching devils. Sounds logical to me.

I\'d actually use the bible to argue with you, but somehow I doubt you\'d listen.

I think that X made some decent points, especially in regards to bible quotes being taken out of context, but this one seemed a bit like a low blow.

This comment seemed less like a retort in a logical sence, and more like a personal attack.
Honestly, I think Wind would have listened, if only for the sake of argumentaion. He loves him some debate.

Let\'s play nice now.:lol:

"I worship the Supreme Comrade Cossack!"

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Mega X.exe
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But tell me... is it not possible that this feeling is nothing more than wishful thinking? Or that this greater purpose good simply be the potential to become more than anyone thought you could be? Or even refering to The Universe as a Hologram... the subconcious longing to fulfill that potential and become your own god? All things ARE possible you know.

Could the same not be said of your holographic universe theory? Could that be naught but wishful thinking?

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Tell me... of all people who are on this board, what is the first religion people think of as a collective? It is christianity. You say HOLY ITEM someone says CROSS. In order to get a point across, one must use an example that the student understands, yes?

Fair enough. But it might have been a little more effective to use an event like the crusades, where there was more violence involved.

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Once again my friend, I am speaking using a collective of all religions that I have studied. MANY religions state only that they were given free will, and not that there was sin to tempt them.

Ah, that wasn\'t clear when I posted. At the very least, I didn\'t see it.

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Assuming that man created god, as I am now, God\'s will would be man\'s will first. And as the will of man changes, so does the will of god.

The rules of religion were broken as well as bent, my colleague. And the most common reference is Bush for the suicide soldiers, however, I had in mind, the crusades and a few wars fought in the middle east about 200 years ago.

So this whole part of the argument has been opinion vs opinion then?

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Through WRITTEN history. Read a history book on blacks from 50 years ago versus one now. History, like religion, is changed to suit certain people.

Could you give me an example of such a book? I was always under the impression that the start of a tribe, nation, country, of society is marked with conflict, be it against man or nature.

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No more cracking on Necro.

Oh fine. Ruin all my fun.

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This has been fun. It\'s a pity your rebuttles couldn\'t have been longer and more in depth.

Yeah, it hasn\'t been a good day. I\'m on edge.

As for using the Bible: See, God gave us free will, but in the context that there was perfection, and we had the choice to introduce sin. God gave us orders, but he didn\'t force us to follow them. Homosexuality, is one of the many things that came about because of sin and temptation. As I myself understand it, homosexuality is a sin, but no more or less than any other.

So you obviously have the hypocrite Christians who call gay people icky. Then you have the others who believe it\'s wrong, but don\'t freak out at the mention of the word, and then you have thousands of other beliefs to stack on top of that.

But if you want the actual verse that details the fall of man, I\'ll give it to you. Using the Message version just for it\'s amazing lack of wordiness. Seriously, that\'s thing is awesome for concepts.

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The serpent was clever, more clever than any wild animal GOD had made. He spoke to the Woman: \"Do I understand that God told you not to eat from any tree in the garden?\"

The Woman said to the serpent, \"Not at all. We can eat from the trees in the garden. It\'s only about the tree in the middle of the garden that God said, \"Don\'t eat from it; don\'t even touch it or you\'ll die.\'\"

The serpent told the Woman, \"You won\'t die. God knows that the moment you eat from that tree, you\'ll see what\'s really going on. You\'ll be just like God, knowing everything, ranging all the way from good to evil.\"

When the Woman saw that the tree looked like good eating and realized what she would get out of it--she\'d know everything!--she took and ate the fruit and then gave some to her husband, and he ate.

Immediately the two of them did \"see what\'s really going on\"--saw themselves naked! They sewed fig leaves together as makeshift clothes for themselves.

When they heard the sound of GOD strolling in the garden in the evening breeze, the Man and his Wife hid in the trees of the garden, hid from GOD.

GOD called to the Man: \"Where are you?\"

He said, \"I heard you in the garden and I was afraid because I was naked. And I hid.\"

GOD said, \"Who told you you were naked? Did you eat from that tree I told you not to eat from?\"

The Man said, \"The Woman you gave me as a companion, she gave me fruit from the tree, and, yes, I ate it.\"

GOD said to the Woman, \"What is this that you\'ve done?\"

\"The serpent seduced me,\" she said, \"and I ate.\"

GOD told the serpent:

\"Because you\'ve done this, you\'re cursed,

cursed beyond all cattle and wild animals,

Cursed to slink on your belly

and eat dirt all your life.

I\'m declaring war between you and the Woman,

between your offspring and hers.

He\'ll wound your head,

you\'ll wound his heel.\"

He told the Woman:

\"I\'ll multiply your pains in childbirth;

you\'ll give birth to your babies in pain.

You\'ll want to please your husband,

but he\'ll lord it over you.\"

He told the Man:

\"Because you listened to your wife

and ate from the tree

That I commanded you not to eat from,

\"Don\'t eat from this tree,\'

The very ground is cursed because of you;

getting food from the ground

Will be as painful as having babies is for your wife;

you\'ll be working in pain all your life long.

The ground will sprout thorns and weeds,

you\'ll get your food the hard way,

Planting and tilling and harvesting,

sweating in the fields from dawn to dusk,

Until you return to that ground yourself, dead and buried;

you started out as dirt, you\'ll end up dirt.\"

The Man, known as Adam, named his wife Eve because she was the mother of all the living.

GOD made leather clothing for Adam and his wife and dressed them.

GOD said, \"The Man has become like one of us, capable of knowing everything, ranging from good to evil. What if he now should reach out and take fruit from the Tree-of-Life and eat, and live forever? Never--this cannot happen!\"

So GOD expelled them from the Garden of Eden and sent them to work the ground, the same dirt out of which they\'d been made. He threw them out of the garden and stationed angel-cherubim and a revolving sword of fire east of it, guarding the path to the Tree-of-Life.

Course, I\'m sure I just opened several doors for you to gain even more of a foothold in your argument, but whatever.

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AimMan v2.5
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Man, how in the world am I supposed to post this much?! I can\'t even read that much!

Anyways, I would read it all, but from the start it sounds pretty much exactly like what I\'ve heard before: man creates Gods to explain natural events, man creates Gods to explain their own wrongdoing, man creates God to calm their fear of death, Man.... possibly Bush bashing? Ah well, I\'ve heard a lot of all of it already.

Wooh, everybody laugh it up in 3, 2, 1...

My Christian belief, and probably others, but not all others, tells me if that there\'s any doubt in my mind that the belief in Christ is the only way to heaven, I am not going to heaven. Therefore, if you\'re really arguing with a Christian, there\'s no way he\'ll change his mind, so this is completely pointless. If he does yield, he wasn\'t saved to begin with.

I\'m not trying to glorify myself, I\'m saying that any given Christian, even if I am not a true Christian myself, will not change their opinion if they really are a Christian. Really, it\'s kind of meaningless even so, because just about nobody will change their view on, well, anything by listening to something a 15 year old with a piece of corn as his avatar or just about anyone else posts over the message board. In fact, no matter who said what, just about nobody on the face of the planet could successfully change another man\'s views on religion just by posting over a message board like this. Or maybe even with a sitting discussion. It\'s just the stubborn way that humans are.

Anyways, I really am sorry I can\'t say I\'m as informed on all of the discussion as you and Mega X are. But then again, I really see no point in discussing religion over and over again like this on the message board......

Yet I continue fruitlessly.:lol:

[Edited on 14-11-2005 by AimMan v2.5]

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ELBURITO
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I plan to read all of this later.
until then....

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ANAL SEX MAKES BABY JESUS CRY

That SO caught my attention.

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\"What comes after death?\"

Well, at least something. What it is, I will find out when the time comes and I die. I don\'t feel like \'exploring\' the afterlife just right now.

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\"Is there a God?\"

Maybe. Do I even care? Listen to what I say, again: there is something out there. Something really powerful and wise and IT IS WATCHING US. What is it? Maybe it is a bald woman who likes to wear \'fro wigs and clown shoes and who really enjoys watching mice have sex and playing dominoes.

All hail the Supreme Comrade Cossack!

BladeMan.EXE
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Another interesting topic from Windrider. You never cease to amaze me with your ability to write incredibly long posts.

That aside, I just want to say one thing about the afterlife: no one will EVER no for sure if it exists or not. Near death experiences depicting heaven or the alternative could just be hallucinations of sorts, and if you simply cease to exist or end up spending eternity somewhere else, it\'s kind of hard to write the folks and tell them the answer.

As for if there\'s a God, that\'s all a matter of faith. You believe or you don\'t, there\'s little room for anything in between. Personally I believe. However, some of the things carried out in the name of religion are rediculous. Wars, prejudice, ostracizing groups, it\'s all so stupid. Then there\'s the fact that, whether you like it or not, sacred texts (like the Bible or the Hebrew texts) have been changed by human hands. Not to mention they were originally written by humans. This leaves so much room for corruption and errors that you can\'t be sure of what\'s true or sensationalism.

And one final note. Homosexuality is not an evil from the way I see it. I\'m heterosexual Christian and I have no problem with other people\'s preference. Not to mention I\'ve never heard of a specific instance where homosexuality is punished by God. I\'ve heard about Sodom or whatever that cities name was, but the most I\'ve heard about it was a something along the lines of \"men looking at each other with lustful eyes\" or something along those lines. This is very vague, especially since \"lustful\" may very well have been translated from a word that actually meant \"jealous\" or \"envious\".

[Edited on 14-11-2005 by BladeMan.EXE]

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HollowTorment
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Quote:
so this is completely pointless.

Huzzah! Aim gets a cookie.

This is indeed pointless, because you all are held in your positions, and endless debate will not change your minds, and NOTHING involved is factual. No one here has died, so..

But carry on. Might as well do something to pass the time, eh?

Mega X.exe
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[quote]Originally posted by BladeMan.EXE
Another interesting topic from Windrider. You never cease to amaze me with your ability to write incredibly long posts.

That aside, I just want to say one thing about the afterlife: no one will EVER no for sure if it exists or not. Near death experiences depicting heaven or the alternative could just be hallucinations of sorts, and if you simply cease to exist or end up spending eternity somewhere else, it\'s kind of hard to write the folks and tell them the answer.

As for if there\'s a God, that\'s all a matter of faith. You believe or you don\'t, there\'s little room for anything in between. Personally I believe. However, some of the things carried out in the name of religion are rediculous. Wars, prejudice, ostracizing groups, it\'s all so stupid. Then there\'s the fact that, whether you like it or not, sacred texts (like the Bible or the Hebrew texts) have been changed by human hands. Not to mention they were originally written by humans. This leaves so much room for corruption and errors that you can\'t be sure of what\'s true or sensationalism.

And one final note. Homosexuality is not an evil from the way I see it. I\'m heterosexual Christian and I have no problem with other people\'s preference. Not to mention I\'ve never heard of a specific instance where homosexuality is punished by God. I\'ve heard about Sodom or whatever that cities name was, but the most I\'ve heard about it was a something along the lines of \"men looking at each other with lustful eyes\" or something along those lines. This is very vague, especially since \"lustful\" may very well have been translated from a word that actually meant \"jealous\" or \"envious\".

[Edited on 14-11-2005 by BladeMan.EXE] [/quote]

That. and Soddom and Gomorrah was very heavy on the rape part, and I\'m sure that\'s a sin.

But from Leviticus:

\"Don\'t have sex with a man as one does with a woman. That is abhorrent.\"

And for those who aren\'t familiar, the tale of Sodom and Gomorrah, can be found in Genesis 18-19.

Breakman
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Quote:
Originally posted by HollowTorment
But carry on. Might as well do something to pass the time, eh?

Just talk because people are able to? *shrugs* I don\'t understand. I don\'t understand the reason to make debate topics. They are always borderline trolling if not separates and creates distrust among the members.

I wish this place was like the Astroboy Online forums. We agreed all political and controversial topics should not be done. There are plenty other places on the web for them. We agreed that our love of Astro was enough to keep us together and mustn\'t break it. That\'s saying a lot when most of the frequent members are from totally different parts of the world...

*sighs* My post is spam...

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Shadowfire
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It\'s less you sharing your points of view, and more of you trying to get people to argue with you, and them telling them that they\'re stupid and wrong when they share their points of view.

J_Hibiki
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Quote:
Originally posted by Shadowfire
It\'s less you sharing your points of view, and more of you trying to get people to argue with you, and them telling them that they\'re stupid and wrong when they share their points of view.

I don\'t this so shadowfire...In all honesty I think that Wind simply has a strong opinion and just wants to get it out...as he so often does. I as well have a strong opinion that seems to flow along the same lines as the wind man, as he shall now be known.

I\'ve been under the belief that people created god out of ignorance and fear myself. See I have the belief that originally confusion and superstition let to people misunderstanding natural phenomena with magical or spiritual events. Some time along the line leaders might have used that fear and superstition to there advantage and manipulate \"god\" to justify what ever thay want to do.

This seemed to be a very well thought out and put together work by \"the wind man\". I agreed whole heartedly on most points. I don\'t have anything against Christians or any grop of people who believes in god. But I wish it was slightly easier to get a debate out of them before the attacks start, before they say we are trying to argue simply because we don\'t shre the same belief as them.

[Edited on 16-11-2005 by J_Hibiki]

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Well... How many debate topics like this shall we open? It truly seems that there are a lot of them. Frankly, I\'m not usually huge on debate or argument, but between the lot of you, I really feel the need to post, especially since Christians have been accused of jumping to the \"attack\" first before expressing intelligent opinion. Well, if you want intelligence, I\'m not sure I\'m the best person to talk to, but I can state my opinion.

For any who doesn\'t know, I believe the Bible. The entire, complete Bible. I believe that it is the one, true Word of God. Why, you may ask? Hasn\'t it been corrupted, changed by human hands? Wasn\'t it written by humans? Well, since this is about belief pure and simple, here is what I believe. No, it isn\'t just a book made by human hands. It\'s God\'s love letter to his bride, the church. And if the \"bride\" reference confuses you, that is mentioned in the Bible. If God is truly all powerful, and either you believe that or you don\'t- I do- then wouldn\'t it be safe to say that he can at least protect his Holy Word from tampering? I\'m sure that some things may have changed, been lost in translation, but I believe that the meaning it still there as He wants it to be. I believe that he \"told\" those who wrote it what to write. It\'s God inspired, even if it was physically penned by man.

Of course, this argument has no bearing to those who simply don\'t believe the Bible, and for those who do, then I\'m preaching to the choir. But a debate is a debate, and I may as well say where I stand. As for people creating God because they don\'t want to not believe, I suppose I could say the same thing in reverse. Wouldn\'t it be just as easy for me to say that people choose not to believe because they don\'t want to believe? It makes sense in that context, too. If mankind doesn\'t want to have to be obedient to a higher power, then why would they want to believe in one, and consequently that they\'re going to Hell? I\'m pretty sure, for one, that very few people actually like to believe they\'re going to Hell.

The fact remains, however, that someone is right, and someone is wrong. Either nothing exists, or something exists. I believe it\'s God. Why? Because when I look around, I see something created with a plan. I see something that couldn\'t possibly have happened by chance. To me, it would be like seeing a beautiful work of coherent art and saying, \"Oh look, someone spilled paint on the canvas.\" A little much for some people? Maybe. But that\'s how I see it.

I will say that horrible things have been done in the name of religion. There is always corruption in anything. We\'re corrupt beings, and there\'s no denying that. People do things that are wrong. Does that mean that the true believers are wrong? No, it means that some powerful people did some very bad things, in simple terms.

Now, finally, I\'ll say this; you ask for us to be open minded, and become angry when you feel that someone defending Christianity or otherwise disagreeing with you is \"attacking\" you. And yet, isn\'t that what you\'re doing? Perhaps you don\'t mean it, but much of what you say comes out as rather insulting. Isn\'t it hypocritical to say, \"I don\'t want to change anyone\'s mind,\" (but you\'re stupid if you don\'t agree with me?) As I said, that\'s how it comes across. If you wish others to be tolerant of you, be tolerant of them. I didn\'t see a \"Bible Thumping Christian\" starting this debate. In fact, I rarely see them being the starters of debate.

The fact remains that we all have our own beliefs and opinions. I am not one of those people who will say that everyone\'s right and there is no wrong answer. I believe in absolutes. But calling someone ignorant does not make them inclined to see things your way. Anything can be twisted around to have different meanings. Doing so isn\'t going to change anyone\'s mind. A debate is fine, but I see too much insulting going on in these things. I think, perhaps, people should be looking at this more objectively instead of immediately growing defensive.

-Ri

[Edited on 16-11-2005 by Rioni Riishu]

HollowTorment
Interordi's Lovable Jerk

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Quote:
Originally posted by NewWindRider~
Hollow, Break, in your own eyes, this topic may very well be pointless, but that is only for the narrow minded to believe.

Noooo it\'s not for the \"narrow minded\" to believe. But actually though, you\'re right about this not being pointless. Its point is as Shadowfire said; you riling up others who don\'t agree with you with jabs and insults..and as Break said, it\'s borderline trolling. I should know. But you veil it as a \"philisophical debate\" or some jazz.

You\'re \"debating\" like O\'Reilly.

Whoever yells the loudest, \"wins\"!

Quote:
But when we don\'t really know anything about eachother, how are we able to say that we are a community, or that we have befriended another?

Because we can know alot about the other person without knowing every specific detail. For instance..when Mega X was frequently on the attack \"back in the day\" (he handles himself alot better now) I saw him as another psychotic un-Christian trying to convert us all. But you know, if none of those religious topics would have came up..I really doubt that I would\'ve got into those heated arguements with him. And therefore, would have gotten along with him from the start. Befriending and community without the pointless \"my faith is correct, yours isn\'t\" crap.

Hell, I almost lost a good friend to pointless political arguements. They were funny at first but.. I\'m just saying, it\'s ridiculous to think that we need to know one\'s religion/race/sexual preference/gender/political stance/age/etc in order to \"be a community\". We\'re a community because we know Break sweats alot. We\'re a community because Necro is actually Napoleon (but we do wonder how he can type while on a horse). We\'re a community because Doc may be a really nice guy, but sometimes just says the oddest things..

I\'m still offended and baffled that he thinks X3 is the worst of the series.

Quote:
What you, and so many others fail to realize, is that what is put in text might as well have been said face to face,

I dunno what planet you\'re from, but I certainly don\'t think that. I can say \"damn\" in 13 different ways face to face. But only about four ways online. And damn! online might mean an \"ow I stubbed my toe\" damn or a \"he missed the pass\" damn or a \"I CHOPPED MY FINGERTIP OFF\" damn offline.

Quote:
So, while you\'re entitled to your opinion, quite frankly, I think it\'s one made out of ignorance.

I am very much entitled to said opinion, and well..you can think it\'s ignorance but at least I\'m not trying to anger Christians on a Megaman message board. :o

Quote:
What\'s wrong with a little twisting of the brain now and then,

Nothing. But \'braintwisters\' don\'t involve \"haha your entire faith is stoopid and false because I said so even though I have no proof that it\'s fake and you have no proof my beliefs are fake\"

J_Hibiki
Red Abaranger

Inactive
390 posts

Quote:
Originally posted by Rioni Riishu
Now, finally, I\'ll say this; you ask for us to be open minded, and become angry when you feel that someone defending Christianity or otherwise disagreeing with you is \"attacking\" you. And yet, isn\'t that what you\'re doing? Perhaps you don\'t mean it, but much of what you say comes out as rather insulting. Isn\'t it hypocritical to say, \"I don\'t want to change anyone\'s mind,\" (but you\'re stupid if you don\'t agree with me?) As I said, that\'s how it comes across. If you wish others to be tolerant of you, be tolerant of them. I didn\'t see a \"Bible Thumping Christian\" starting this debate. In fact, I rarely see them being the starters of debate.

The fact remains that we all have our own beliefs and opinions. I am not one of those people who will say that everyone\'s right and there is no wrong answer. I believe in absolutes. But calling someone ignorant does not make them inclined to see things your way. Anything can be twisted around to have different meanings. Doing so isn\'t going to change anyone\'s mind. A debate is fine, but I see too much insulting going on in these things. I think, perhaps, people should be looking at this more objectively instead of immediately growing defensive.

-Ri

About the attacking part, I was myself was talking about people who will say things like \"you\'re wrong because you don\'t believe in god.\" or along the lines of \"people who don\'t believe in god need to die\" (and yes I\'ve been told that several times, hm what a Christian outlook.) I was told by Christians that they can\'t be my friend because I don\'t believe in god and they don\'t want to be around people like that. Those are the people. Look, the thing is I don\'t think god is real, some people do, if you do I\'m not going to get mad at you. I will ask you why, I will tell you what I think, and I will tell you why I think that. But I\'m not going to get mad. I\'ll ask Christians to look in to science a little more at least to know both sides.

I went to church for 5 years trying to learn as much as I could to understand both sides, I got to know a lot of christens (a lot of them are what I like to call Sunday morning Christians, when they are at church they are perfect children of god but outside of church they are very bad kids, but still a lot of tehm are good people) so don\'t think I dislike a person just for being Christian. I talked to the preacher of my church and asked why he was a Christian and he told me \"when you accept god into your life you\'ll understand.\" I just want honest straight answers that\'s all.

So all I want to say is love what ever you want, love god ,love science, love the devil, or any combination, just give an honest straight up answer to why you believe it.

[Edited on 16-11-2005 by J_Hibiki]

[Edited on 16-11-2005 by J_Hibiki]

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Mega X.exe
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Quote:
Originally posted by HollowTorment

Because we can know alot about the other person without knowing every specific detail. For instance..when Mega X was frequently on the attack \"back in the day\" (he handles himself alot better now) I saw him as another psychotic un-Christian trying to convert us all. But you know, if none of those religious topics would have came up..I really doubt that I would\'ve got into those heated arguements with him. And therefore, would have gotten along with him from the start. Befriending and community without the pointless \"my faith is correct, yours isn\'t\" crap.

Ugh...don\'t remind me. >_<

Quote:
Hell, I almost lost a good friend to pointless political arguements. They were funny at first but.. I\'m just saying, it\'s ridiculous to think that we need to know one\'s religion/race/sexual preference/gender/political stance/age/etc in order to \"be a community\". We\'re a community because we know Break sweats alot. We\'re a community because Necro is actually Napoleon (but we do wonder how he can type while on a horse). We\'re a community because Doc may be a really nice guy, but sometimes just says the oddest things.. :lol:

True. I mean, some families and groups of friends get along great when they have the no religion/politics rule. Besides, there are other ways to share your opinions besides straight up, \"Hell or bust\" topics.

Quote:
I\'m still offended and baffled that he thinks X3 is the worst of the series.

I\'ll hand that to X8 myself.

To break the chain and quote Wind for a sec:

Quote:
So, while you\'re entitled to your opinion, quite frankly, I think it\'s one made out of ignorance.

Wind, I\'m gonna be frank. I don\'t give a rat\'s ass what you think about my opinion. I mean, yeah, I respect yours and I\'m happy to hear it, but that doesn\'t mean I care if you don\'t feel the same.

I\'m going to take a guess and say that Hollow--who this was meant for in the first place--shares my sentiments, but I\'m not going to put words in his/her/it\'s mouth.

And yes, I\'m still trying to preserve the Hollow Gender Mystery. Damn fun tradition.

Breakman
Shlorpian in disguise

Inactive
1784 posts

I totally agree with what Hollow said. There\'s no real reason why people need to know s/a/l/r, especially since this is a specialty board (\"Megaman/Rockman\" from the last time I saw). While others find it quite easy to accept others even though they are on the other side of the spectrum, many others will just take it offensively. But first, the topics in question must not try to provoke others to answering. Let\'s see there\'s at least 3 topics made by you Wind that say God is just a fairy tale. What do you want to do? Force people to believe in what you believe through repetition?

I agree with what Rioni said too. Religion was/is used for good and bad. Many people only see the bad parts/members because that\'s all that they want to see. All religions (or at least the main ones of today) are peaceful by nature. Any religion that forces conversion upon people (*gasp* even the Christian religion \"tree\") are not part of the religion. Don\'t say apples are yucky just because the first or second one was rotten or had a worm.

And really, who cares if someone believed in God(s) or the planet\'s power? At least they have someone/thing that is keeping them in check, making sure the person is doing good, etc. People who believe in such things usually have the natural tendency of thinking about others than themselves... I want to be a good person who do good to others including strangers. In order to do that, I need rules of how to act so I act the same to anyone I meet. (\"Hello.\", \"Thank you.\", \"Stick together, everyone.\", \"Take my seat.\", \"Do you need help?\", \"Treat things that don\'t belong to you with care.\"...) That\'s what religion is: rules on how to live life. That\'s my \"honest straight up answer.\"

Quote:
Said by Hollow

Quote:
Quoth Wind
What you, and so many others fail to realize, is that what is put in text might as well have been said face to face,

I dunno what planet you\'re from, but I certainly don\'t think that. I can say \"damn\" in 13 different ways face to face. But only about four ways online.

I would like to add to Hollow\'s comment is that many people rather use letters/notes/etc instead of talking to someone face-to-face...

I\'m totally sorry. I just don\'t understand why people want to argue on such controversial issues. I see it as a waste of time, energy, and money (although, I doubt nobody used money in this debate other than internet time). Debates are debates. There\'s two (or more) opposing sides and they are suppose to give their all to their side, trying to force the other side to either give up or give in. They are often heated (flaming) and both sides usually never come out thinking differently than what they came in.

There\'s probably more that I want to say, but nothing comes to mind... Oh!

Quote:
Added by MegaX
And yes, I\'m still trying to preserve the Hollow Gender Mystery. Damn fun tradition.

Huh? But Hollow is- *smashed under a hill of Metools*

AimMan v2.5
Superstar!

Inactive
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I\'m pretty sure Necro\'s actually a centaur. Yeah, that explains it.:lol:... Wait, I still don\'t know Hollow\'s gender either.

<_<...>_>.... I got a cookie. AimMan never gets cookies. Necromancy!

I believe I agree with what\'s been said. You can\'t force anyone to believe anyone, and furthermore, it\'s pretty mess-o hard to even slightly influence somebody\'s opinion through discussions like this. Besides, it really seems like it\'s best if we don\'t discuss religion too much on a board where everyone has different beliefs, right? I mean, it\'s a great community, and if discussing this is going to hurt it (not that this has, but past ones have), then I say we just drop it.

Agh, why are all of my posts so short all of a sudden?!:eek:

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Rioni Riishu
Superstar!

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Okay, I don\'t mean to be so totally off topic but... first off, it\'s \"Riishu...\" That\'s not a big deal. Secondly, I am a female. XD It amuses me how many people get that wrong. Anyway, I\'m glad that you seem to think that I can express my opinion well; I really try. And obviously, we don\'t agree on a lot when it comes to religion... but really, that\'s all right. I don\'t hold it against you, and I\'m sure that you don\'t hold it against me.

All right, I\'ll add more to this. Um... I have to say that if there\'s one person you\'re being rude to, it\'s Shadowfire. She\'s entitled to her opinion, too. Her post was NOT spam any more than anything else.

I do agree with you that people who believe- and I mean believe anything,- and have no way to back it and no reason why are certainly irritating. I am firm in my beliefs, and yet, there have been times when I really wished that some certain fellow Christian wasn\'t on my side. But every side of an argument has people like that, I suppose. Not everyone is interested in trying to be intillegent.

-Ri

[Edited on 17-11-2005 by Rioni Riishu]

Mega X.exe
Forum Ghost

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Of course that \"strong will\" has gotten me into my fair share of foot-in-mouth situations. ^_^;;. Trying to work on that, tempering a strong will with a level head.

Necro
Hail to the King, baby!

Inactive
1265 posts

Quote:
Originally posted by NewWindRider~

I know it seems that way, but whenever I post one of these, I want people to try and prove me wrong or offer additions to the ideas, so that I can both refine and sharpen my ideas, as well as take in new ones. That\'s what debate is about. To me, at least. And I apologize to everyone who thinks I\'m trying to do different.

This isn\'t a subject where anyone can be proven to be wrong. Nobody here can be proven to be incorrect no matter how silly some others might feel their beliefs are(or how incredibly influencing, for that matter). People are going to believe one thing and discussion such as this isn\'t going to change anything. You all might learn more about each other and like you said, you might get to refine your ideas if others who share similiar beliefs share theirs, but nobody will be swayed. And nothing will ever be proven.

The fact that nothing can ever be proven on this subject just makes me feel that it\'s utterly pointless. Man can never know whether or not a god exists until after death. One can never be enlightened on such a subject because there is absolutely nothing to be enlightened on. You cannot gain any greater insight on life by discussing this(you can gain greater insight on your peers, however).

Personally, I\'m not going to waste my time reading all the replies in this topic. I\'m simply not interested in whatever you people believe in. It doesn\'t matter how we got here, and what happens after we leave; what matters is that we are here and what we do with the time we have.

And finally, I find it sad that atheists are always hung up on Christianity. Atheists generally do not believe in the existence of any gods, but yet, it always seems like the ones anyone encounters is always trying to disprove that there is no God. Such people are having their thoughts manipulated by various factors that make them waste their time on something so frivilous. Okay, you don\'t believe in God. But the fact that many atheists try to disprove his existance or talk to others about it suggests that God still has some significance in their life.

*yawn*

Anyways, I\'m leaving this topic open. Break didn\'t close it so neither will I, as I have no objections to this kind of discussion. But if things get hostile for any reason, you can consider this bad boy closed.

I once ruled Interordi with an iron fist.

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